Refuting the Tajsim⁽¹⁾ of the Pseudo Salafiyyah

On Thu, 1 May 1997, Hesham Mahmoud wrote:
 
 

"I just remembered something. If Allah said what means " God is on the Throne" then why should we imagine it's not real?!"

Brother Hesham, the reason why we should not "IMAGINE" this is because we, as Muslims, are not allowed to imagine Allah or His Attributes. When you imagine istiwa, you are automatically attributing Allah to the creation.

Read some proof brother:

Umm Salama, the Prophet's wife, said the following about istiwa', as quoted by IBN HAJAR AL-ASQALANI in his "Fath al-Bari" "The establishment is not unknown (ghayr majhul) and ITS MODALITY IS INCONCEIVABLE IN THE MIND (ghayr ma'qul); one does not ask "HOW" about Him; "HOW" is inapplicable to Him."

[Ibn Hajar,Fath al-Bari 13:406-7  Beirut 1989 ed.]

 

Brother, so now you know why we shouldn't IMAGINE this. Also, Imam AHMAD IBN HANBAL said:

"Whatever you IMAGINE Allah to be, Allah is not that."

Allah is the our Lord and when we hear something like that we have to say (as i know) That's right but how all that looks like Allaho A'Alam (a'lam).  And again you have made a big mistake and confused the Muslims even more. You wrote: "...BUT HOW ALL THAT LOOKS LIKE ALLAH ALLAHO A'ALAM." As Ibn Hajar said, the HOW of Allah is no to be asked. Therefore, in light of that scholarly statement, you cannot say that we don't know HOW ALLAH'S ISTIWA IS. You cannot even say that only Allah knows HOW HIS ISTIWA is. A "HOW" doesn't apply to Allah, so we cannot even say the word HOW for Allah or His Attributes. We know that Allah has "istiwa" in a way that befits Him. Saying HOW is a way to attempt to describe in human terms, and Allah knows that He doesn't resemble the creation, so it is inappropriate to say: Allah has istiwa but only He knows HOW His istiwa is.
 

Let's not try to think it's just metaphoric language OK?! God knows how is it and we can do nothing but believing and keeping silence.
 
 

Brother, the ulema or scholars of Islam said that the Attributes of Allah  can be understood in 2 ways:

The first way is to accept Allah's Attributes as they are, without explaining them away - keeping in mind that "Laysa ka mithlihi shayy" or Nothing resembles Him Whatsoever (42:11). This is what the majority of the Salaf did (but not ALL of the Salaf).

The second way is to explain the Attributes of Allah in a way that doesn't contradict the rules of the Religion. That is, giving "Ta'weel" (or figurative interpretation) of the Divine Attributes. This is done in times of need, when people of bidda are injecting poison in the Ummah. An example is Ibn Taymiyya and Ibn al-Qayyim al-Jawziyya who both said that Allah's Attributes are LITERAL (Haqiqi), thereby explaining away the ayat of Quran in a way that contradicts the Quran and Sunna. Specifically, he should not have said the Attributes are LITERAL, but just leave the explanation of those "mutashabihut" ayat to Allah. By saying those Attributes are LITERAL, he contradicted ayah 42:11 -- Nothing resembles Him whatsoever. When the need came, scholars gave "ta'weel" to preserve the creed of Ahl us-Sunna. Let's read what the famous IMAM NAWAWI said about this issue:

"The most well-known of the school of the theologians (mutakallimun) says that the divine Attributes are interpreted figuratively according to what befits them. Others say that they are not interpreted but that one refrains from speaking concerning their meaning, and defers its actual knowledge (yuwakkilu 'ilmaha) to Allah, all the while holding the belief that Allah is transcendent above all things and that the attributes of the created are negated concerning Him, so that it is said, for example: We believe that the Merciful is established over the Throne, and we do not know the reality of the meaning of this nor what is meant by it (la na'lamu haqiqata mi'na dhalika wa al-murada bihi), while we believe that "There is nothing whatsoever like Him " (42:11)

And that He is exalted far above the most elevated of created things. That is the way of the Salaf or at least THEIR VAST MAJORITY, and it is the safest because one is not required to probe into such matters. Therefore, if he believes in Allah's transcendence, there is no need for him to probe this nor to think about what is neither obligatory nor even needed to know.

HOWEVER, IF THERE IS A NEED FOR INTERPRETATION (TA'WIL) IN ORDER TO REFUTE INNOVATORS AND THEIR LIKE, THEN THEY (SALAF) WENT AHEAD AND APPLIED INTERPRETATION. This is the correct understanding of what has reached us from the scholars concerning this subject, and Allah knows best."

[Imam Nawawi, intro. to his  "al-Majmu' sharh al-muhadhdhab  (Cairo: Matba'at al-'asima, n.d.) 1:25.]
 

So brother Hesham, you said we shouldn't interpret the Attributes figuratively at all, but Imam NAWAWI says it can be done when needed. So who should we believe? Shaykh ul-Islam NAWAWI or you?

Also, know that the MAJORITY OF SALAF didn't give "ta'weel" because it was understood and was a norm that Allah doesn't resemble the creation. Therefore, they accepted ayat as they were, without explaining them. However, some among the SALAF did do "ta'weel", like Imam BUKHARI and AHMAD IBN HANBAL.

As time went by, this norm of understanding that Allah doesn't resemble the creation was starting to be lost, and people of bidda said things like: Allah's Attributes are LITERAL (like Ibn Taymiyya said). Thereby, the scholars of Ahl us-Sunna had the need to refute such heretical statements (as Imam NAWAWI said) by innovators, to stop the confusion among Muslims caused by innovators. Therefore, scholars gave appropriate figurative interpretations (ta'weel) to Attributes of Allah, in a way appropriate to the Rules of the Religion. And know that the MAJORITY of the Khalaf scholars gave ta'weel to refute the innovators.

So Hesham, figurative interpretation has been done by many scholars who are a billion times more knowledgable than both you and I. We don't have the right to accuse them of wrongdoing, knowing that our status' of knowledge are nowhere close to the status' of the ulema.

Not because we are trying to support an opinion of some party or another but because these what're called "motashabeh" ... and who will try to work on these motashabeh willslip very easy.

Yes we are supporting the opinions of a party. This party is called Ahl us-Sunna wal-Jamma. This is the One Saved Group that all Muslims must be in. And this "party" consists of all the scholars of the 4 madhahib (Hanafi, Shafi'i, Maliki, and Hanbali). We don't jump around from one "party" to the next, when we give proof. This is "talfeeq" which scholars have forbidden, and this is not the practice of Ahl-us-Sunna wal-Jamma.

And by saying: "...THESE WHAT'RE CALLED MOTASHABEH...AND WHO WILL TRY TO WORK ON THESE MOTASHABEH WILL SLIP EASY," you have accused plenty

of scholars of slipping away from the truth. The Quran states this in reference to those people who lack knowledge of Islam and then interpret them, thereby leading themselves astray. It, by all means, didn't refer to those scholars who were capable of giving ta'weel!

Do you think Imam AHMAD IBN HANBAL "slipped away" from the truth? Did you know he made "ta'weel?" Read this proof:

Imam Ahmad's authentic interpretation of Allah's coming, in the verse, "And thy Lord shall come with angels, rank on rank" (89:22) as referring to the coming of His order (amr) according to the verse "Wait they aught save that thy Lord's command (amr) should come to pass?" (16:32).

Imam BAIHAQI in his "Al-Asma' wa al-sifat" related Hammad ibn Zayd's interpretation of Allah's descent to the nearest heaven, in the hadiths of descent, as His drawing near to His servants.

[Baihaqi, al-Asma' wa al-sifat pg 456; IBN AL-JAWZI spoke to this effect in his  "Daf shubah al-tashibh (pg 196): "Since you understand the one who descends  towards you is near to you, content yourself  with the knowledge that is near you, and do not think in terms of bodily nearness."]

So, did Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Imam Nawawi, and Imam Baihaqi "slip away" from the Truth by giving "ta'weel???" Did Ibn al-Jawzi "slip away" from the Truth by giving ta'weel on Allah's descent?? I would rather believe these scholars of Ahl us-Sunna than those who are not even close to their status like myself or yourself.

Ibn Taymiyya and Ibn al-Qayyim, however, tampered with the "motashabihut" by saying that Allah's Attributes are LITERAL. As a result, they deviated from the doctrine of Ahl us-Sunna.
 
 

I hope if I have more knowledge to support in this discussion but I know some people like Kareem Darweesh, Saif and many brothers can say more clearly and trustworthy more than I can.

I also just wonder if u guys agree we can ask the MSA cabinet bros to bring a nice speaker to try to explain this Fitnah as long as it showed its ugly face?!
 
 

Brother, you are from Egypt. I thought you knew what FITNA meant. I guess my assumption was wrong. Fitna is dividing Muslims by injecting poison into Truth. However, when poison is being rejected in light of proof, this is not FITNA, but bidding ma'roof and forbidding al-munkar.

All I am doing is mentioning what scholars said in their books from Quran and Sunna. The FITNA has been caused already by Ibn Taymiyya and Muhammad ibn Abdl-Wahab, among others who followed them. I am just exposing their FITNA so Muslims won't be trapped into their NEW doctrine which recently appeared. Don't forget, Ibn Taymiyya or Muhammad Ibn Abdul-Wahab were NOT part of the pious SALAF. They made bid'a and therefore, FITNA, for which they were refuted by scholars of Ahl us-Sunna.

What I am saying is nothing new. It is not me initiating this so-called "FITNA". The FITNA has already started with the Taymiyyans and the Wahabees. Exposing Fitna is not a fitna brother, but fulfilling the ayat of Quran by "biding ma'ruf" and "forbidding al-munkar."

You want to know what FITNA is?? FITNA is when:

IBN TAYMIYYA said that ASH'ARI scholars are more than just innovators, but equivalent to pre-Islamic idol-worshippers (in his "Minhaj ahl al-Sunna). Then Ibn Taymiyya and his student Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya said that "ASH'ARIS are like the JAHMI (an extreme faction of Mua'tazila)!!

Brothers and sisters, let me just name you a few of the many scholars who were ASH'ARI in school of creed. These are the scholars of Ahl us-Sunna:

1. Imam NAWAWI

2. Imam Abu Hamid GHAZALI

3. Imam BAIHAQI

4. Al-hafiz Abu Sulayman al-Khattabi

5. Ibn Hajar al-ASQALANI

6. Shaykh al-Islam al Qadi al-Baqillani

7. Imam Abu Bakr Ibn Furak

8. Al hafiz Abu Ishaq al-Isfara'ini

9. Imam Abu Mansur al-Baghdadi

10. Imam al-Sumnani

11. al-hafiz al-Khatib al-Baghdadi

12. Imam al-Qushayri

13. Imam al-Haramayn al-Juwayni

14. al-Turtushi

15. Ibn Tumart

16. al-Qadi 'Iyad al-Maliki

17. Imam Shahrastani

18. al-hafiz Abu al-Qasim Ibn 'Asakir

19. Imam Sayf al-Din Al-Amidi

20. Shaykh al-Islam al-'Izz ibn 'Abd al-Salam

21. Imam al-Qurtubi

22. Ibn Daqiq al-Eid.

23. al-Qadi al-Baydawi

24. Ibn Abu Jamra

25. Imam al-Nasafi

26. Muhadith Jalaluddin al-SUYOOTI

27. Ibn Juzayy

28. Shaykh al-Islam al-'Izz ibn Jama'a

29. Imam Abu Hayyan al-Nahwi al-Andalusi

30. Shaykh al-Islam Taqi al-Din al-Subki (renewer of 8th century)

31. Shaykh al-Islam al-Bulqini

32. Imam al-Sharif al-Jurjani

33. al-Fayruzabadi

34. Imam Taqi al-Din Abu Bakr al-Hisni

35. Al-hafiz al-Sakhawi

36. Shaykh ul-Islam Zakarriya al-Ansari

37. Abu al-Hasan al-Bakri

38. Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Hajar al-Haytami

39. Imam al-Shirbini al-Khatib

40. Imam al-Qulaybi

41. Imam Ibn 'Alawi al-Haddad (renewer of 12th century)
 

These are only some out of many scholars who are ASH'ARI. As a reminder, Imam NAWAWI, GHAZALI, and BAIHAQI are also Ash'ari.  So do you approve of ANYONE saying that these people are like the  "Jahmiyya" or the extreme faction of Mu'atazila?? Imagine somebody saying  that Imam NAWAWI was a deviant. Imagine somebody saying that Imam GHAZALI  was an innovator. Imagine people saying that the famous narrator of  hadith, Imam BAIHAQI was of the Ahl ul-Bidda. Imagine anyone saying that  Ibn hajar al-ASQALANI was a man who injected poison into the stream of the  Ummah! Imagine someone saying that Jalaluddin al-SUYOOTI was of the Ahl  al-Ahwa (Albani said he is a "loudmouth").

YES, IBN TAYMIYYA and his student IBN QAYYIM AL-JAWZIYYA label them as deviants (although they cannot help mentioning their names to support themselves in their books!) The Wahabees/salafis of today also claim that ASH'ARI are of the innovators like the Mu'atazila are. Go and tell them which scholars were Ash'ari, to put an end to their false accusations against scholars of Ahl us-Sunna.

So Hesham, THIS IS FITNA - from the very scholars you praise and defend. I stick to the majority of Muslims, the Jama'a. I don't wish to be separated from the Jama'a and become the "lonely sheep" like Ibn Taymiyya and Ibn Abdul-Wahhab, Al-Albani, Shaykh Salim al-Hilali, Abu Bilal Mustafa al-Kanadi, Bin Baaz, Abu Aminah Bilal Phillips.
 

May Allah guide you and all others who are infected by Pseudo-salafi/wahabi's new doctrine - which is not the doctrine of Ahl us-Sunna wal-Jamma (or from the true and pious Salaf).

Ameen.

Muhammad Zubair Qamar
 
 
 

1. The act of attributing qualities of the creation to the Creator. Allahu ta 'ala says: Laysa kamithlihi shay" There is nothing similar to Him.
 
 

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